Some people talk and all we want to do is listen. Author and journalist Anand Giridharadas is one of those people. His most recent book, Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World, explores the rigging of the American system and how even the most altruistic billionaires are doing more harm than good while ostensibly “giving back” to society.

The two also dive deep into America’s dark history while acknowledging its light, what Marianne refers to as the “both and” that’s embedded in our country from its founding. Looking to the future, they talk about how the country can move forward and how we can form a more just society for all.

Marianne Williamson is a bestselling author, political activist and spiritual thought leader.

For over three decades Marianne has been a leader in spiritual and religiously progressive circles. She is the author of 14 books, four of which have been #1 New York Times best sellers.